Curse

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadlyjunk

/agree

ZB is not even good, it's viable at best. It's the only thing that keeps monks that have any effect on the game in RA/TA anyway, other than SoR bonders. I don't get why you're making a point of this tbh... healing prayers are underplayed? LoD ftw.

You use LoD in RA/TA? RA/TA is your arguement for keeping ZB in Prot.

Micromaster · Oct 05, 2007, 08:37 PM // 20:37

I really don't see a problem with ZB being where it is. It was created for the fact so in a 4v4 situation, a prot monk could carry a heal. That's like saying Gift of Health should be moved to prot because so many prot monks use it... I believe it's fine where it is.

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Gift of Health is red bars go up so it belongs in healing. ZB is red bars go up so it belongs in healing.

Saying that ZB is the only effective 4v4 elite is wrong, as I can make an effective boonprot monk that will serve its function in 4v4. Saying that ZB does it better simply reinforces my point that it is much too strong in its current attribute.

TGgold · Oct 05, 2007, 08:41 PM // 20:41

If ZB were in healing prayers, I don't see why people wouldn't just use a max specced WoH.
The results aren't half as tragic if you flub over the 50% mark with WoH, wheras a 10e spell(ZB) on a heal monk would be tragic. a 5e Spike Heal is pretty much always available, wheras at ZB I can see becoming a burden when pressed for energy.

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 08:44 PM // 20:44

You can't target yourself with WoH. Comparing WOH and ZB is not logical.

Edit: Apologies.

Sab · Oct 05, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

Which will then make it Prot (healing with utility). You're starting to catch my drift, aye?

Healing Prayers will still be stuck with a pile of crappy heals and no utility. If you move ZB to Healing, you'll just force people to run 12/9/9 because they'll still use all the good skills from Prot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

Gift of Health is red bars go up so it belongs in healing. ZB is red bars go up so it belongs in healing.

Saying that ZB is the only effective 4v4 elite is wrong, as I can make an effective boonprot monk that will serve its function in 4v4. Saying that ZB does it better simply reinforces my point that it is much too strong in its current attribute.

I think your argument is more about continuity than actual balance. I see little practical value in that, where the skill is balanced as it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

Lastly I am tired of players wanting everything nerf because they are having a tough time countering a build, and just want to complain instead of finding a viable counter. All I can say is learn to play the game, as I said before, I will say it again, nothing and I mean nothing from it's inception has ever been overpowered, skill, spell, or otherwise. "Being Overpowered" is a term used by players who lack the aptitude to develope counters to a good team or build, and simply want a easy way out. Knowledge is power, use it to your advantage, or quit.

Forgive my sarcasm, but do you really think top players, some of which have been playing for two years, hadn't thought about countering builds? Skill balance goes a lot deeper than you think and, judging by your post, I doubt you have enough experience in PvP to understand this.

Winterclaw · Oct 05, 2007, 08:51 PM // 20:51

ZB is a heal for protect monks because they need to heal HP too from time to time and their usefulness outweighes that of healing prayers. I mean look at the HA meta, if you see a team in the HoH with 3 monks, likely they'll have two protect monks and one healer.

Spazzer, what you don't seem to get is that prot is a utility line and healing can be a part of utility. HP has better heals in general and doesn't really need ZB.

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Healing Prayers will still be stuck with a pile of crappy heals and no utility. If you move ZB to Healing, you'll just force people to run 12/9/9 because they'll still use all the good skills from Prot.

Yeah, I understand the want to not make Healing suck, too. Unfortunately, it already does (in a utility respect). I like the idea that was suggested earlier about putting Spirit Bond into Healing. Before release, Healing Hands was just Shielding Hands in a different attribute (wasn't even elite) with a healing effect rather than a damage reducing effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Spazzer, what you don't seem to get is that prot is a utility line and healing can be a part of utility.

I understand what you want to convince me of, but please understand that I had this stance since the preview event and I've watched this entire time as exactly what I predicted happened. Take that with a grain of salt.

Now, there's nothing preventing you from putting points into Healing Prayers and using something like Healing Light as well with your prot monk, and it seems to be just as effective as ZB with a mixed prot. I don't see what you're saying about ZB being the only thing you can do to heal if ZB is put into Healing.

Rice · Oct 05, 2007, 08:55 PM // 20:55

I think the reason we like ZB is because it is good in 4v4. And yes we like it to keep that way for TA/RA. In a 8v8 team, where u can have multiply monks, Lod and RC is almost a must just because of all the degen/condition thread you will face in a 8 man team. And yes ZB does heal alot for cheap when someone is below 50% health, but the 3/4 cast time is not designed to stop spike, especially in ha or gvg, that what infuse health is for.

Melody Cross · Oct 05, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

You use LoD in RA/TA? RA/TA is your arguement for keeping ZB in Prot.

Wait a moment everyone. This post snagged something in the back of my head.

You're pretty quick to bust on the RA crowd, but TA can be competitive. Spazzer, in what arena are you hoping to use ZB in? If it goes to Healing Prayers, where are you wanting to use it?

Teh [prefession]-zorz · Oct 05, 2007, 09:00 PM // 21:00

since im in a pissy mood ill make this short.

IF YOU WANT TO USE A ZB USE A WORD OF HEALING.

quit freaking QQing and learn how to monk.

HawkofStorms · Oct 05, 2007, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

Don't ever cite RA in a discussion about balance.

RA and TA are the only places people complain about ZB. ZB is not "overpowered" in any way shape or form in GvG.

ValaOfTheFens · Oct 05, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

/notsigned

ZB is just one of a handful of skills that let Prot Monks heal. In the end HP monls will always heal better than Prot monks. ZB is just one skill in the face of dozens of better and/or cheaper HP spells. The energy gain is only there because its it Prot. If you moved it to Heal then the energy bonus would need to be removed or it would have to be made more expensive. No thanks.

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

I think your argument is more about continuity than actual balance.

It's both. What I'm lolling over is that I'm seeing a lot of "Gasp, you'll break the meta!". You would think I'm suggeting another nerf to Soul Reaping for the universal reaction of shock and condemnation, which makes me believe even more firmly that I am correct.

I do not believe Protection Prayers needs an unconditional heal. I don't think anyone here has convinced me that it deserves one other than the "but we've had one for a whole year" arguement. I believe monk is still viable in 4v4 without ZB in Prot. I don't believe that putting ZB in healing prayers will kill the usefulness of the skill itself.

Deadlyjunk · Oct 05, 2007, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

Saying that ZB does it better simply reinforces my point that it is much too strong in its current attribute.

It's not "too strong", it's easily beatable. And if now you reinvoke the argument that we shouldn't be looking RA/TA for balance anyway you're not making a point so much as chasing your own tail.

FACT: ZB is worthless except in RA/TA.
FACT: ZB is beatable in RA/TA.
CONCLUSION: There is no "ZB balance issue"
HYPOTHESIS: OP is incapable of keeping self alive with healing prayers or unable to kill ZB prot monks?

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadlyjunk

FACT: ZB is worthless except in RA/TA.

Prove it.

Quote:

HYPOTHESIS: OP is incapable of keeping self alive with healing prayers or unable to kill ZB prot monks?

lolin

Deadlyjunk · Oct 05, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadlyjunk

FACT: ZB is worthless except in RA/TA.

Prove it.

Erm, there's about 20 HP skills that are better (like WoH incidentally, and who cares about "other" - either you play with another healer or bring a non elite self heal) in Healing Prayers, there are no builds with ZB in either the GvG, HA, HB (not that it counts) or PvE metagame to speak of. ZB is only useful if you are the only person healing "you", which should not be happening in any 8-man team. Basically the very mechanics of the skill only allow it to work better than alternative elites if you're in 4vs4.

I consider that "proved". If you disagree, I'm gonna do the typical political and lame (but effective) response: prove that it isn't. Give me a working build with ZB for something else than 4vs4 (or scrimmages).

moriz · Oct 05, 2007, 09:51 PM // 21:51

healing already have ZB: it's called word of healing. if you think WoH sucks, then the same will be said of ZB if you move it to healing.

anyways, the whole "make red bars go up = healing" concept is bad. spirit bond makes red bars go up. should it be in healing as well?

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadlyjunk

there are no builds with ZB in either the GvG ... or PvE metagame to speak of.

You're high. You must be high.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

spirit bond makes red bars go up. should it be in healing as well?

Yes. Why is it assumed that I shouldn't agree with this?

traiur · Oct 05, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

You would think I'm suggeting another nerf to Soul Reaping for the universal reaction of shock and condemnation, which makes me believe even more firmly that I am correct.

Im sorry but this is basically a self fulfilling prophecy. No matter what we say you are going to reply, "Oh but that just proves that ZB is too strong cause you don't want to deal without it."
This is not a healthy way to discuss any topic as its entirely one sided. It would be exactly the same as talking to a brick wall except that the brick wall talks at you.